Suzy B Software 2/Suzy B Software CD-ROM 2 (1994).iso/textfile/txt_l2z/piracyco/piracyco.txt

Text File | 1995-04-25 | 27KB | 611 lines

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    This is a transcript of a formal Conference held Tuesday, January
    7th, 1992.  The focus of the Conference was software piracy, and
    its ramifications on the Atari community.


.Gordie (ST Advantage sysop) >
   Well, as an introductory statement, let me say that the ST community is
   faced with a double dilemma.  The two problems we face are a diminished
   market, which we won't go into tonight, and the stigma of the Atarian
   as rampant pirate.  That one, we will discuss.

   I think, however, that most of us remaining in the ST community have
   grown in awareness as to just how piracy affects us, and don't involve
   ourselves as we once might have.  I will admit to having pirated
   software, in my earlier years, and now, in retrospect, see what it
   cost me.  There are very, very, few North American software companies
   that still support our platform.  Some have moved their ST development
   overseas, where there is a bigger market.  But with the small market
   (relative to the PC and Mac ones), we are hit even harder by what
   casual copying that does go on.

   Atari made a statement once upon a time about piracy...

   They said there were 3 levels of it.  The most severe was the software
   counterfeiters, who take a program and essentially make a carbon-copy
   of it, selling it as if it were the real thing.  That isn't a problem
   with the ST, as the market isn't large enough to support that level of
   involvement.

   The next level was that of the pirate bbs rings.  That still goes on,
   and there is a distinct sociological pattern that exists within that
   subculture.  Hopefully, we'll talk a little about that tonight, too.

   The last level, and probably the most destructive level, was that of
   casual copying.  We're all familiar with it if we have been in a user
   group.  One person gets a program, and passes copies along for their
   friends to 'evaluate'.  Most people don't see it as being wrong,
   somehow, but it most definitely is.

   That attitude has probably caused the most harm to the ST market of any
   held by Atari users.  The idea that your use of something, without
   compensating the author, is somehow not hurting the author.  Well, it
   does.  And it hurts us all, in the end.

   That's what I want to talk about tonight, and we have some people here
   who can hopefully shed a little insight into the whole thing.  So, I'll
   open the floor for questions or comments.  Anyone?

.AP7>
   We need to be vigilant, but not vigilantes, righteous, but not self
   righteous, and be willing to "Call a spade a spade", so to speak.  One
   function I want to personally get involved in is opening the closets so
   to speak, and cleaning house.  Getting rid of the bats, if you will.
   A fundamental function of my proposed conference will be to literally
   teach, not only with programmers helping each other, but spreading
   understanding of what is involved in software production, the headaches
   and mindbending, if you will.

.Gordie>
   AP7, education is most definitely what we need to do.  If people don't
   know it's wrong, they won't stop doing it.

.AP7>
   Education is a foundation from which behavior becomes possible.
   Behavior is learned, and many pirates simply know nothing about ethics.
   Sometimes it is that simple.
.Hippie>
   How bad is piracy really... I see it more as the reason I can't run
   game from the hard drive due to pirates.  ga

.Gordie>
   This is where I wish Charles was here.  He told me some interesting
   things about CodeHead products.  They got more advance orders for the
   TEC board, which can't be pirated at all, than they've sold of any of
   their software products.  That may indicate a significant piracy
   problem.  And maybe not.  Anyone have a comment?

.GRM (Gordon R. Meyer, a developer) >
   Yes, another factor in that fact that many games can't be run from
   the hard drive is that it seems most companies develop for the minimal
   setup, a 520 or 1040ST at most.  They might hesitate to spend any
   additional development or "support" for more advanced systems.  ga

.Gordie>
   Especially when ST sales are so abysmal.  Some companies, however, do
   make their software HD installable.  Quentin, you want to comment?

MICROPROSE (represented by Quentin Chaney) >
   Hi Everyone...  Our ST products are now developed by our UK office
   where HD's are basically non-existent.  And as such now that they are
   developing mainly for the European community do not see the need,
   whether correct or not, for HD installable software for the Atari.  ga

.Gordie>
   That makes sense, Quentin.  You have to develop for where the money is
   found.  Simple business.  John, you had a comment earlier?

PENDZICH>
   How much software sales are really lost due to the pirates?  Those who
   are into copying also copy movies, music etc. and would not buy any
   software if they could not copy it.  ga

.Gordie>
   Do any of you developers want to take a shot at this one?

.CodeHead (represented by Charles F. Johnson) >
   That's one of those issues that's really impossible to quantize.
   Common sense tells us, though, that if the majority of the users can
   simply download something for free from a BBS, or get it from a friend,
   then it must affect sales at SOME point.  ga

DABRUMLEVE (Dorothy A. Brumleve, a developer) >
   Even people on tight budgets seem to come up with the cash for
   hardware.  I'll bet they'd buy software too, if a free option weren't
   available.

.Gordie>
   A lot of people managed to put together the bucks for the Happy
   enhancement.  Probably more than the value of the software they copied
   with it.
.Dana>
   I'd really like to know a couple of things  What can be, and what is
   being done to put a dent in the problem.  There are two problems...
   Lack of education, and pirate bulletin boards.  We need to really
   educate people, not just cry about the problem.  And I hate to sound
   like a vigillante, but pirate boards need to be eradicated to the point
   that people will be afraid to operate them.  Comments?
PENDZICH>
   Ma Bell may soon take care of BBS's entirely.

MICROPROSE>
   It amazes me that I usually receive, through various BBS's and Customer
   Service, many messages about Pirate BBS boards with the comment always
   mentioning that " They paid for the game and they do not like the idea
   of someone else getting it for free."  Although there are that many ST
   BBS's that I've come across, they do exist and in MicroProse's case we
   always try contacting the party and ask nicely for them to remove our
   software.  99 times out of 100 this works with no problems later down
   the line.  The ones who act the "Pirate" are then turned over to the
   FBI and SPA... a last resort on our part.  Rusty's and Edie's was a
   main problem for a while, but after being contacted by the FBI, quickly
   cleaned up their boards for all formats.  Sometimes scare tactics are
   the only thing that do work, but most people just do it for the thrill
   of being a Pirate, I believe.  ga

.AP7>
   Education can work both ways.  Action must be utilized, too.  If the
   pirates can learn so much that they can, with impunity, copy anything
   and have their own BBS networks, why cannot we learn about it and STOP
   SELLING OR RENTING TO THEM!  I can tell you two local names now that,
   if they were on a Blacklist, there'd be a big dent in Piracy.  SPA is a
   joke, IMHO.

   Or, simply put, if the honorable among us really decide to dig our heels
   in, we can make a difference! ga

.Gordie>
   For those of us in the ST community, the SPA isn't probably our best
   course of action.

.GRM>
   Dave Small had a very interesting article or two in Current Notes a
   number of years ago regarding an unamed ST developer or two who had
   taken to releasing fake pirated software.  This software would take
   revenge (somehow, use your imagination) on pirates.  I seem to recall
   that Small rejected that approach as being unethical, but it is a
   _very_ interesting idea.   As for the SPA,  as part of my research on
   the Computer Underground I've tried, as a user, to contact them
   regarding pirate boards.  They were less than interested, sadly to
   say, and the words "atari" never entered into our conversation.  GA

.Gordie>
   I had that feeling.  We are one of the 'Other Computers' in their
   lists.

.Dana>
   Well, I can understand that sugar is better, but people just aren't
   likely to stop if there's no fear involved.  If there's any possibility
   of losing their systems, etc., they will be more likely  to cease.  If
   the SPA isn't the right "agency", can one be formed in the Atari
   community, or is there one already?

.Gordie>
   I wonder if some pressure can be placed on the phone companies.  They
   are deriving income from the calls, after all.

.Dana>
   I don't think so, Gordie, unless the phone company AND FBI are involved
   together.

DABRUMLEVE>
   Actually, when you hear about a pirate board going down, it's often
   because they had files on phone freaking and such.  The phone company
   has friends in police organizations.
.Gordie>
   If the phone companies were formally made aware that illegal activity
   was being conducted on their lines, wouldn't they share in the
   responsibility?

.Dana>
   yes

.Gordie>
   That may be the approach that needs to be taken.

.GRM>
   I'm not a lawyer, but for the most part the main legal interest is
   civil, not criminal.  When it comes to toll fraud, such as phreaking,
   the Secret Service is the agency it would fall under and they are
   having a hard enough time going after hackers, which are perceived as
   a threat, let alone pirates, which are not really considered
   "dangerous".  ga

.CodeHead>
   That's right, Gordon...official agencies only get interested when the
   dollars get large.  I guess that's when it's "dangerous" enough for
   them.
.GRM>
   Right Charles, unless you can convincly argue that "national defense"
   is at stake when it comes to piracy.  Then they'd be interested.
.AP7>
   We need people at a local level that will keep their eyes open and
   Speak Out.

.Gordie>
   A Neighborhood Watch kind of thing?

.AP7>
   I tried that, and practically was ostracized by the local Club.

.Gordie>
   Sad.

.AP7>
   Yes, Gordie, but we need Developers that will Do something, even if
   only write a letter on a company letterhead.  Would you developers
   consider each writing one letter on your own letterheads.  To a certain
   major Pirate locally, and informing him he has NO upgrade support
   anymore?
DABRUMLEVE>
   I would write, but my software is rarely found on pirate boards.

.AP7>
   That is not the point, WE ALL NEED TO WORK TOGETHER!!!

DABRUMLEVE>
   Besides that, upgrade support isn't necessary for the board-runner.  He
   can just get a new upload from one of his users.

.AP7>
   We all gotta be in like glue, and sticky as honey, and tough.  Pirates
   do not want to know that you know.  Publicity is one thing they do not
   want or need.

DABRUMLEVE>
   I think there's the ethical question about non-support of a valid
   user.  If the guy has BOUGHT the program legitimately, we should follow
   through on support.

.Gordie>
   True, if someone pays for the upgrade, they should get the upgrade.
   Now, if it were encoded with a tag, it might be interesting.

.GRM>
   I agree with Dorothy, otherwise "lack of support" can become just
   one more justification for not paying for software in the first place.

.AP7>
   Every program should be encrypted with the owners name, like NeoDesk.

DABRUMLEVE>
   Nearly all software is encoded and can be traced.  It's what you do
   with the info when you get it.

PENDZICH>
   I've been Co-sysop on 5 boards since 80 and have had to delete (c)
   software from time to time.  Almost always, they have included files
   that give names and phone numbers of bbs's etc.  Why is this not
   evidence to prosecute?  ga

.Dana>
   Anyone can "doctor" a text file, that's why.

.Gordie>
   True, we've seen it happen before.

.Dana>
   Download listings, messages, etc. are essentially only a "clue".  You
   need to literally check the system and find the stuff there.

.GRM>
   My question of the developers here is this, have you found, to the
   extent that you care to let us know, that encoding the owners name
   in your products is effective?  How so?  Keeping honest people
   honest, or actually tracking illegal copies?  GA

PENDZICH>
   Just reminded me that at the last users group someone stole my floppy
   out of my system and got my "registered UIS and Quick ST" what are my
   recourses.  Should I contact the publishers?  ga

.AP7>
   Yes!!

.Dana>
   What do the developers recommend, that we as users, do to help?

.CodeHead>
   Can I say one thing before I have to leave?

.Gordie>
   Please do.

.CodeHead>
   Unfortunately, folks, it all boils down to one thing software users
   have to police themselves.  Most Atari companies simply don't have the
   resources to prosecute a civil case effectively, and the officials just
   aren't interested in small cases, which is how they perceive the Atari
   software scene.  "Small-time."  Them's the facts.  So it comes down to
   each person making the decision, for him or herself not to steal
   software, not to destroy the fruits of others' labors, and instead to
   choose an ethical way of existing.  <grin>  Hope that wasn't too heavy,
   but it's true.  I have to run along, folks, see you later.  ga

PENDZICH>
   The world would be a nice place if it was a nice place eh?

.Gordie>
   Thanks, Charles.  Sometimes the truth isn't very pretty.

.AP7>
   Do we have the stomach, collectively, to use the mirror principle?
   Do we have the b*lls to tell a software pirate that we do not like what
   he is doing, and know what he is doing, and to RESIST?  Do we take
   ourselves more seriously than the software pirates take us?  And if we
   do, why aren't they taking the honest ones of us seriously?   ga

.Gordie>
   Gordon, did your research touch on that at all?

.GRM>
   I agree with Charles' point about the users needing to police
   themselves, and doing the ethical thing.  However I think you'll also
   find that the "officials" aren't interested in software piracy, at all,
   regardless of platform.  You'll very rarely, if ever, hear of a
   heavy bust for software piracy at the pirate bbs/user group level.
   It's up to us, make that _you_, and we can't wait for the "officials"
   to step in and do something about it, we must do it ourselves.  As
   for your question Gordie...

   Sometimes it is a matter of culture, the support for a pirate, in
   terms of culture, is fairly strong.   As it takes a committment to
   enter a pirate bbs community (by not being a file leech, etc), it isn't
   something that one might be likely to just walk away from on a whim, or
   because somebody told them "you shouldn't do that".   The nature of the
   bbs medium makes it easy, once the decision is made, to leave the
   community, but convincing the user that they should is the tough part.
   GA

.Gordie>
   I think that's probably the essential point of it all.  How do we
   convince users to 'go straight' and stop pirating.  I think it's a
   matter of education, but even then, there will always be some who are
   incorrigible.

.AP7>
   There is a saying that darkness flees light.  It is my humble opinion
   that a lot could be done merely by openly and publicly facing the
   "problem".

.Gordie>
   But only if the light is strong enough.  If the threat of exposure
   doesn't carry any punishment, is it really a threat?

.AP7>
   ...and I bet not a single pirate will have the b*lls to sue because I
   called him a pirate, if he knows that I have PROOF!

.GRM>
   I would guess that the key is to approach this as a peer problem.
   The old folk wisdom about "peer pressure" has some basis in fact.

.Gordie>
   I think it's far stronger than most realize.

.AP7>
   Peer pressure, yes, but you all know, that "bad guys", no matter how
   tough, wanna be bad guys with other bad guys, not with the public in
   general.

.GRM>
   But AP7, consider the ethics of how you obtain that "proof" as well.
   Pirate boards are private systems.

.Gordie>
   AP7, my question is whether a pirate really cares about being branded
   as such.  Within the pirate community, they will still have status.
   Perhaps even enhanced status because they took the heat.

.GRM>
   Gordie - a substantial body of sociological/criminological work would
   say that comments from non-pirates (non peers) will have no affect.
.AP7>
   If it is open to the public, what makes it sacrosanct?

.AP7>
   Some will not [care about being branded a pirate], but I know for sure
   that one Club Secretary that sold me Calamus for $100 produced by the
   pirate was not too happy...  I am willing to be a mole.  I would be a
   double agent, if I knew it would help.
.GRM>
   AP7 -  you seem to be talking about the level of user group piracy,
   my ethics comment was directed at being a mole on private pirate
   boards.  In order to obtain access you must provide pirated software
   in almost all cases.

.AP7>
   And, yes a few diehards would be actually raised in their "status".
   But if enough stink was raised for long enough, perhaps said Pirate
   would make Inside Edition, and nationwide exposure.  I would need to be
   working with a developer before I would be a mole or "double agent".
   Using an altered copy of a program that could be traced.  Hopefully
   with a cleverly concealed self destruct button, activated by a pseudo
   virus.
.Gordie>
   Let's try to maintain some sense of reality here.  No law enforcement
   organization will be interested in spending the money necessary to run
   down an ST pirate.  They just don't have the funds.  Yes, it's a sad
   commentary on our system of criminal enforcement, but it's the reality
   none the less.

.GRM>
   One thing that hasn't been mentioned is how focusing on piracy in
   the ST market may actually hurt things as much as the piracy itself
   by scaring away new developers and adding to the disgust of current
   ones.  I doubt we really have it any worse, percentage wise, then
   other platforms.  We're just such an "elite" (small) user base.

.Gordie>
   There's a lot to be said for that comment, Gordon.  How many new
   developers would be willing to risk their efforts to go into these
   so-called pirate infested waters?  Not many, even if the allegations
   aren't true.

.Gordie>
   Quentin, any comments on what MicroProse thinks?  Or on what you
   personally think?

MICROPROSE>
   MicroProse basically believes that it's up to each user to make the
   decision and realize that Piracy directly affects sales.  And with no
   sales, no support for that platform.

.Gordie>
   Would you say that higher prices are, in part, a product of piracy?

MICROPROSE>
   I would have to say yes.  As more time is needed to develop the code
   for some sort of protection as well as the testing involved.  ga

.Gordie>
   As well as affecting the return on the development investment.  A
   software publisher needs to sell a certain number of copies to make
   back what they've spent in developing something.  If that number is
   reduced due to piracy, then obviously the per copy price has to be
   higher, to make up the difference.  ga

MICROPROSE>
   Yes, the money from a product also pays for future projects and if
   there is no return on the previous game, then after awhile, that
   platform will have no more funds and personel will be assigned where
   the profit is.

.Gordie>
   Sounds like we might all know of a platform that falls into that
   scenario.

.Bob>
   Because of bad expereinces with certain (not Atari) software, I prefer
   to use backup copies of everything, but all of my Atari software is
   legal.  Some manufacturers are not very cooperative about supplying
   backup copies when the original is OK, but I feel better with a backup.
   Comments?  ga

.Gordie>
   I imagine they see it as providing a 'pass along' copy, and don't want
   to make it too easy.  ga

.GRM>
   You're legally entitled to a backup copy, and I imagine most companies
   expect you to make one yourself rather than supply you with one.  It's
   been a while since I've seen something that can't be backed up at
   all. GA

.Bob>
   Yes, but I can't make copies of some of them.  ga

.Gordie>
   Dungeon Master being one, as an example.  ga

.GRM>
   Hmmm, I guess there are some that defy all copy programs.  You're right,
   that's a tough boat to be in.

   Another factor here, and I'm not trying to be an apologist for the ST
   market, is that not all developers are giving me what I want to buy.
   I haven't bought but a couple games this year because I don't play
   games too much, and how many flight simulators do I need?!  Thus,
   some software company is missing sales to an active ST supporter, me!,
   not due to piracy but due to not meeting my needs as a user.

   However, it probably looks like there aren't any ST users left so
   they don't bother with the innovative software that would attract my
   dollar.  But sometimes I so want to see continued support for the ST
   that I'll feel like I should buy something I may not totally want
   just to encourage their efforts.   Sort of silly, eh? GA

.Bob>
   Same here. ga

.Gordie>
   Not silly at all.  I have that same inclination sometimes.  But I'd
   like to send a signal to a domestic company, if possible, and they just
   don't exist.  ga

.GRM>
   I normally send the UK registration card to the US branch of the
   company and let them know they lost a sale by not supplying a US
   version.  GA

.Gordie>
   That's a nice touch.  I'll have to try it.

   It's getting late, so I think I'll wind this up for tonight, if that's
   okay with everyone else.

.GRM>
   It's been enjoyable, thanks for hosting Gordie!

.Gordie>
   I know we haven't definitively covered the subject, but I think we made
   some good points, and hopefully, will stir up some discussion in the
   community at large.

   That said, this CO is officially ended!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Afterwards, several of us continued to chat, and the following comments
were made concerning piracy via modem.

"About 3 years ago a local user bought a referb'd USR 9600.  He said that
when he called any BBS that listed 9600, that the sysop would almost
immediately come online and chat, asking if he operated a BBS.  When he
answered no, the sysop would upgrade him online and then point him to the
d/l section.  I saw file listings of unreleased games and other stuff 3 or
4 months before I would see them listed for sale in the magazines.  The
9600 was the key to opening the door on the pirate BBSs a few years ago.
At the same time, a local was running a FoReM BBS and he wrote a simple
card game to run a door.  After distributing this to several other BBSs,
he was accepted into their pirate network.  He would show me lists and
disks with all kinds of goodies on them.  So, I know how rampant software\
pirating is/was."

I included that bit of commentary as a point of information.  I do not
mean to imply that everyone with a 9600 baud modem or bbs is a pirate.
But it does point out that there is far more than casual copying going on,
even now, with the ST market as diminished as it is.  Perhaps the damage
is done, and we will never recover from it.  I certainly hope that isn't
the case.  But, I do know that we, each and every one of us, must make a
committment to stop stealing software.

It's not an especially difficult concept to understand.  If you didn't buy
it, and it wasn't a gift, it's stolen.  Someone who spent a lot of time
and effort creating it isn't being compensated for their work.  That
someone is a real person somewhere, probably a lot like yourself.  Someone
with bills to pay.  Maybe a family to take care of.  Someone who tried to
get ahead in this world.  And you have hurt that person.  Piracy isn't
something to be proud of.  It's something to be ashamed of.

Ongoing discussion of software piracy continues to be important.  We,
as honest ST users, must find a way to stop the dishonest from destroying
what little we have left.  The key is education.  If you find your child
has pirated software, you must educate him or her about why it's wrong.
If you find a fellow ST user pirating software, you must educate him or
her about why it's wrong.  If you have pirated software, consider what
you have done, and continue to do.  Delete those files or format those
disks.  Buy the programs you really like, and get along without the rest.
You'll feel better, knowing that you have done the right thing.  And
knowing that you've done your part in keeping the ST alive.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Editorial comments by Gordie Meyer <BIBLINSKI>.  They are his comments and
not necessarily those of DELPHI, The ST Advantage, his user group, nor
anyone else, for that matter.  But he hopes he's not alone.

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